I was linked to an article from a FTM SO website today. Its called ‘Trans-positioned‘ and may be one of the most entitled pieces of shit I have read about relationships since I was a member of the “Why won’t my wife sleep with me?” forums in 2005.
The person who linked me to it has asked that if I reference her on my blog I name her so that it is clear who I am talking about. So, Farida, this post is in fact inspired by you.
My debate with Farida about the lesbian attitude to transmen has been gone on quite long enough, and her emailing this to me has made me quite lose my temper. I understand that when a lesbian’s lover comes out as transsexual, then it effects her… it has to! However, this article is way out of line.
The article begins like this:
She’s the kind of butch any femme would want: kind and thoughtful, mature and funny, politically aware and playful, handsome and great in bed. You’ve been soaring on cloud nine since the two of you got together.
There’s just one little problem that threatens to bring the whole wonderful lovership to a crashing halt.
She says that despite her female body, she’s actually a man. And she — or should it be “he”? — intends to live as one.
The author Loree then goes on to explain how her lover Marcelle came out as trans to her, and she gave him the ultimatum… transition or her. Marcelle goes back into the closet for nine years, and then when he comes out again Loree discovers that they aren’t the only couple thats going through this, and starts a support group.
With time, these initial gut-level, emotional reactions start getting refined and begin to take shape as questions about identity. Although these questions are all interrelated, they can be roughly grouped into three categories: What does this (transsexuality) make hir? What does it make me? And, what does it make us?
These are the rational questions that must be asked if your relationship is a lesbian relationship, and one of the parties involved comes out as FTM. Particularly because ‘lesbian’ is often a political identity as well as a sexual orientation. As the article continues it begins to annoy me… and then enrage me!
Couples also sometimes argue over who controls the coming-out process, particularly if the FTM wants to look like and be treated as a “normal guy” and his lover highly values a more transgressive persona.
This statement reeks of entitlement. The paragraphs preceding it focus on how the lesbian partner can maintain her own identity, with statements like
“Even when things go a little more slowly, each step the transsexual partner takes toward his true identity represents a step away from the lesbian partner’s preferred identity.”
and
“I’m really wary of giving up my identity for someone else. That seems like such a stereotypical femme thing to do — ‘it’s o.k., honey, your identity is more important than mine.”
Right, so heaven forbid he trespass on your lesbian identity, but if you want to be with someone who is gender transgressive, then he wont be a man, by gum! You’ll fight with him over it!
No one should ever control someone elses coming out process. That this is even being argued about by these couples suggests to me that there are major issues with their relationships.
The section ‘When it ends’ doesn’t need quoting, but can be nicely summarized with:
“More than half of lesbian-FTM relationships end after transition, but its not always the lesbians fault! In fact, lots of these lesbians decide they prefer FTM’s! Here’s a tranny-chasing support group to help you meet single FTM’s!”
“My lover will not BECOME anything different than what and who she has been and he is. I know there will be changes, but he will never be a “MAN,” he will just be [his name], with a body he loves and struts around in.”
I should hope that no one reading this needs to have it explained why THAT little paragraph is so fucked up. STRUTS AROUND IN???? FOR FUCKS SAKE.
So, I acknowledge that for a lesbian who has been in a long term relationship with someone who comes out as transsexual is going to be a big fucking deal. However, there is a simple solution to the problem of being a lesbian who is dating a man… if you are only attracted to women, then BREAK UP WITH HIM.
If you don’t want to break up with him, because you love him, and you can be attracted to his male body, then decide what to do about your identity. If you love him, but find the idea of him as a man repulsive, maybe you have some misandrist attitudes that need some serious examination.
Finally, I don’t plan on ever dating a homosexual woman ever again. EVER. I am a MAN, why would I date someone who’s 5.0 on the Kinsey scale? Therefore I have exactly NO interest in hearing about how transmen transitioning effects lesbians. I don’t want to hear about how lesbians are afraid of men, and how you are attracted to women, and pre-T transmen, but not transwomen or post-T transmen. I don’t care if you are talking about your own hang ups, or the hang ups of ‘the dyke scene in Sydney’, its an ugly ugly set of idea’s and beliefs, full of entitlement, and transphobia. I don’t want to hear any more.
I am
I am
April 8, 2008 at 11:38 pm
The Kinsey scale is BS.
I think it should be OK to date whoever, if one is not an identity boundary nazi about it. A dyke can get with a man and still identify as a dyke, or a fag can get with a woman and still identify as a fag, and that’s not an issue, if their identity is based on something other than what they’re doing with their genitals right now. Even better if they understand that rigid definitions of identity labels are naive and unhelpful.
However, unlike a personal identity, a relationship is a mutual thing. It’s not going to work if either partner is overly fixated on rigid identity boundaries and thinks they have incompatible identities, because then they feel like they have to either invalidate the other person’s identity or their own.
April 9, 2008 at 12:09 am
I don’t think it’s “being an identity boundary nazi” to be concerned about you’re being perceived in these situations when you’re trans and *not* also genderqueer.
I’m a woman, period. The identity of those who might date me has ramifications for whether that’s respected: if I’m in a relationship with someone who generally wouldn’t date women, I want to be absolutely sure that I’m still being seen as one. I’ve known queer SOs of transpeople that have been absolutely fantastic on that front, but it’s something that can’t be taken for granted, because it’s fucked up so often - as this piece really describes.
I don’t think it’s fair to call it “overly fixated” for a non-genderqueer-identified transperson to insist that their partner absolutely does see them the way that they are actually identified, and not as their assigned sex - which I would find very profoundly offensive in a partner if I discovered that that was the way they saw me.
April 9, 2008 at 1:01 am
Yes, it is very rare to find someone whose notions of identity are such that they can deal with this kind of apparent conflict of identity without blinking. If only there were more of them… being genderqueer doesn’t help at all if one’s partner just doesn’t get it.
When I said overly fixated, I didn’t mean to say that anyone is overly fixated on maintaining their own identity, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. Of course you have every right to identify how you need to identify, and to live how you need to live, and to have that respected.
What I meant is, it isn’t helpful for anyone to cling to rigid ideas about precisely what identity labels mean and about who can fuck who. That way leads to Trouble; and Trouble is where Ryan and Farida’s friendship has been shipwrecked. All kinds of people fuck all kinds of people and none of them can agree on what identity labels mean.
April 9, 2008 at 7:03 am
[...] lesber og forhold Innsendt den tirsdag 8 april, 2008 av Tarald Stein Etter å ha lest Cheerful Megalomaniacs post om lesber som har vært sammen med transmenn er jeg veldig glad for at jeg aldri har hatt særlig [...]
April 9, 2008 at 10:27 am
I think that there is a difference between sexual orientation (which comes in three flavours, heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual) and sexual identity, which comes in more flavours than can be counted.
A lesbian is a homosexual woman who also ascribes to a certain sexual identity. I identify as a ‘fag’ most of the time… and as ‘pansexual’. My sexual orientation is bisexual though. One cannot really be ‘pansexual’ if they are heterosexual or homosexual.
If you are a homosexual woman, you shouldn’t be dating men. If you are a heterosexual man you shouldn’t be dating men. Period. Otherwise you cross the line into bisexuality, there is nothing wrong with being bisexual… it just means that you are not homosexual (or heterosexual)!
Being a bisexual lesbian is problematic, due to the political history of the lesbian identity. However, I have no problem with bisexual dykes/fags etc.
The issue I have with this article is primarily its implication that its ok to be trans, if you are transgressive, but not if you are ’straight’.
*ramble ramble* I hope this makes a little sense to someone else too.
April 9, 2008 at 11:03 am
[...] lesbians and relationships Posted on 9 April, 2008 by Tarald Stein After reading Cheerful Megalomaniac’s post on lesbian (ex-)partners of transmen, I’m very happy that I’ve not had to deal with lesbians in [...]
April 10, 2008 at 11:24 am
Ryan,
People in complicated situations have complicated feelings. I was in a complicated situation when you came out to me as a transman. My feelings were never so simple as you’re trying to tell me. It confused me because I really did desire you as a man. I was got very hot for the prospect of you having a male body. When I said I wanted to run my tongue over your flat chest that was exactly what I meant. No more, no less. That was a surprise to me. I’m still getting my head around it.
Ryan. I’d also like to remind you that my desires and my body are my own. If I ever made you feel good about being a man, I’m glad, but the affirmation of your masculinity is *not* the fundamental purpose of my body and my feelings.
I did my best to be patient when we were together. I didn’t feel angry with you for not telling me you were a man because I figured it’s complicated and it takes time to figure out. I didn’t expect you to have figured it all out right away. You, however, expect me to have figured out all of my feelings right away. Actually I didn’t even think about how I felt about the situation at all because I was kind of preoccupied with your feelings.
April 10, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Farida: This post was about the article, not our relationship.
Our discussion has pretty well ended up blurring the lines between what was about us and what is about lesbians-FTM’s in general.
Your comment here does not tally with the emails we have exchanged, or the email you just sent about this post; particularly this:
I like female bodies. I’m not into male bodies. In and of itself, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that? I’m not just attracted to a human being as an amorphous soul in the ether, their body is important to me. The fact that I like female bodies means that I’m attracted to ciswomen and pre-transition transmen. Maybe I could be attracted to a transwoman who passed really well, but as yet that hasn’t happened.
Yes, I am being insensitive. I’ve hit the point where I am so sick of being told I am a woman that my ignition point is very very low.
I never expected you to figure everything out right away. I did expect you to *think* though. I still do. I expect you to understand that there is a difference between transsexuality and performance art. I expect you to understand that my underwear is a personal item, that I don’t lend out. I expect you to not ask me questions about the transition process in front of strangers who I may not be out to.
April 14, 2008 at 4:08 am
In telling people about being FTM trans, the only quasi-negative reaction (so far) has come from a feminist lesbian. I was chatting with a MTF friend yesterday and she said the only people who have had issue with her are lesbians. Thus I suspect that lesbians, having had to fight for some time to define themselves in men’s world, are somewhat battle-weary and perhaps a little defensive regarding transpeople. I’m willing to be patient and compassionate in helping my lesbian friends understand that my transgenderism is not a denial of feminine power.
As for sexual tastes, I’m simply lucky in that my “lesbian” GF is probably bi or het–complete identity definition to follow/flourish.
April 14, 2008 at 10:04 am
This post was written in a bit of a rage.
I understand that lesbians are worn out from living in a patriarchal world, and most of the time I am full of compassion for them. Sometimes though I flip out.
April 14, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Blogging was invented for rage and flipping out
April 14, 2008 at 12:45 pm
ROFL
Ain’t that the truth!
June 18, 2008 at 4:43 pm
[...] a few weeks ago I had a flip out about lesbians. I lost my temper, and wrote an angry blog post fisking a stupid article I was linked [...]